PumpkinPatches

Meku's currently being tortured by Kamijo, and I'm happy to watch him stay there for a while. I loved Galeyd, and followed them religiously for the entire year I was living in Tokyo. So, I"m okay with him being forced into a corner with his back against the wall to whatever Kamijo wants... at least for a little while. There's another reason the fans flocked to Galeyd after Deluhi. The company and management who worked with Deluhi went on to work with Galeyd. Their entire label was made up of ex-deluhi workers. In addition, for a while, Galeyd's OHP was actually deluhi.com

It seems like most of what you're saying, nekkichi, is based on the fact that you hate the band and their music. That doesn't matter, because we could be talking about any band and they would still have a right to speak about their music being illegally downloaded. I wonder if we would be having the same conversation if you didn't have this particular hatred for the band in question. No one here is forcing you to listen to the music (illegally downloaded or purchased) at gunpoint, so I think it's time to stop talking about the music they make and more about the point of the discussion.

Sorry. I wrote a 60 page thesis on visual kei marketing to the 'bangya culture' for my international business degree. I'm trying to be as concise as possible. I suck at it.

I think you have some good points, but I still disagree with a vast majority of your ideas. 1. I never stated that I believed it to be possible for Nocturnal Bloodlust to tour any country other than Japan at the moment. That isn't a feasible option at the moment, because you are correct: They aren't big enough. However, that does not mean that the option of touring abroad isn't something the band is thinking about on a pretty real level. HOwever, before any band has the opportunity to tour (or even play a single show abroad) they need to worry about the financial aspect. And you're right; they aren't making enough sales at the moment, but I would state that they certainly have a growing fansbase. Maybe not this year or next year, but if they continue on their current path, I don't understand why it is so difficult to believe they could potentially go abroad. We have bands like "BLOOD" and "LOKA" and even "The Sound Bee HD" that went on tour in a foreign countries, and I would go out of my way to state that their success had more to do with supply and demand that the music itself. We had very small bands being supplied by eager promoters (with less influence of management because they were small) and a high enough demand for 'visual kei' bands to supply a small band and give them the opportunity to tour. Now, take a band that has a bigger following (from the influx of forign followers on twitter, facebook, and the overall hype with most foreign fans to this band) and I would state there is a high possibility of roi. However, this is where management sees lack of sales abroad, and not the people. We know the fans exist, the management does not. And, given time, I would state that the band would grow in popularity and would be more feasible for a tour of some sort. However, management does not see that option. Let's also be honest: at a lot of visual kei lives abroad, it has nothing to do with the band. That's sad, but it's true. It's very common for fans of visual kei to go to visual kei lives abroad because they are visual kei. That's, unfortunately, the sad state of the foriegn visual kei fandom. Youre 100% right in stating that the current industry is flawed. That is why I think it is important to work with the industry and show that it is an viable option to reach out to a broader, more international audience. But because they don't have the demand, they're not going to supply. As for Nocturnal Bloodlust and the 'art' of popular music, I would state that you're partially correct. You're correct in that Nocturnal Bloodlust changed their style. That's on them, fine. (I think this band and visual kei do not mix well, I'll admit that) But saying they don't have the market may be going a bit too far. I would state that interest in them is high enough for us to be debating the finer points of illegal downloading, of the numbers of people downloading and checking them out, or even youtube hits to at least be a slight measure on market potential. That's really what it seems we're debating about: Potential. Potential for sales, potential for international involvement, potential for money-making. I don't think the band is failing. I don't see that happening, because they just announced a new tour (in larger venues), a new album, they hit between 1-5 with all their latest releases on the indies oricon chart, and they have a lot of attention on them right now. This isn't about the band failing, because they're doing just fine in the domestic market. The issue is they are losing sales and selling opportunities abroad. They're losing in the international market not because the interest isn't there, but because it's easier and free to just illegally download. And, as I've previously stated, you're not going to get what you want until you have an active voice in the market. Continue to illegally download, and you're never going to get a voice. I am not passing moral judgment on those who illegally download, but I think your reasoning is flawed in a business perspective. Because it obviously does affect the market enough for the band to actually say something about it, because they do want to branch out internationally. And they're not going to when they don't see any money in it. It's music business for a reason.

We definitely can debate whether or not there would be fans, but to be fair, fans have been able to find rare and hard-to-find stuff from obscure bands for years prior to MP3s and filesharing. It's how the genre began getting popular abroad. Yes, illegal downloading was a boom, but there were fans of DEAD END in the US back in the early 90s. My mother was one of them, and she only got cassettes from some tiny little store in Chinatown. They existed then, and they'll continue to exist. And as for my experience (which may not be a lot to you, but I think it was pretty impressive) most bands are stunned when they realize how popular they are abroad, because they just don't know. They actually have no idea how many fans they have abroad. Mostly because you're right, they pay attention to their domestic fans, because the foreign fans don't make enough noise to be recognized. I followed a band for a year, and they were convinced I was the only foreign fan they had, until I actually told them to look up their English fanpage, with thousands of people excited about them and their new releases. And as for the US, yeah. I'd say you wouldn't be getting a tour any time soon (and I'm an American.) There's too much distance, too much of a pain in the ass with the visas, etc. But Europe? I think they have a better shot. So yeah, a few hundred singles sold may not be enough to get them to come tour next week, but you build up a fanbase that is loyal, and maybe you could have a D'espa tour. I mean, weirder shit's happened before. And if we try, they'll try to make us happy. It's baby steps.

I actually do think there is a loss of sales. Even only 10% of those who want the CD purchase it because there were no illegal downloads available, that's big enough to matter in an industry where a band's lucky to sell 1000 copies of any release. I can agree with some of what Zess said. The biggest problem with this is that it is pretty easy for a band to do. Yet most of these bands don't even know foreign fans exist. Why? Because no one's buying the music. They're not causing enough a a commotion for the band and their management to take account that they are worth the time invested. I think it's pretty fair to say these guys do realize how important foreign fans are. They're trying, and yet when they bring up the point that they CAN'T do anything more until they have the support from the fans, they get messages about how terrible they are for speaking up, people saying "Fine then, I don't want to be a fan anyway!". And then sites like this debate over whether or not they even have a right to state their opinions on illegal downloading, with links to their new three singles not even five clicks away. I have no idea if they'll ever get super popular abroad, but I can say that there seems to be the interest in them. But even if we were talking about another band, it's kind of ridiculous to be angry that a member tweets (rather nicely, considering) that fans should respect his art and at least try to buy it. ' Fans have to be part of the solution. If they want a voice in the market, they need to put their money where their mouth is. Because, if nothing else, money is what management listens to.

You're the one who asked...? Your other points have no merit. They're literally pointless. I'm waiting for you to make a point that's worth a moment of thought.

Just to answer your question: I grew up in New York. My mother was a Seikima II and DEAD END fan, and I got a cassette of X's Blue Blood when I was like, 11. That's how I found visual kei.

It seems everyone else who has read and commented had an okay time understanding my response. You didn't, so I'm sorry I wasn't completely clarifying. This topic is about fans and their purchasing habits, and the fact that a band has a right to state their opinions on illegal downloading. To begin: As stated, the international market does directly influence the band's sales, particularly when many of these fans consider the music and band important enough to follow and request that the band visits their countries. International sales are vital if you want the band in question to take part in an expensive expedition abroad. In addition, fans complain when bands they enjoy disband, even when it is in regards to funds, yet do not purchase music. The sales of even 10% of people who illegally download would have a massive affect upon the visual kei industry, which is already considered small and niche. Because we're talking about visual kei, not western music. If anyone wants to know how much it sucks being the child of a starving artist, go ahead and send me a pm. The point of the matter is this: Visual kei is an expensive industry to be a musician. Sales are important to a band, because it directly influences the amount of industry attention they receive, as well as sponsorships, promotions, and in the end, money. The purchase of music is vital to keeping the industry alive. And yes, foreign fans are important to that, considering how numerous they are, and how very little they spend. You're correct in one way, but I overall disagree with this sentiment because we live in an international economy. The act of 1000 fans illegally downloading a cd in Chile can hurt a band, by taking away that 10% of fans who would have purchased the cd otherwise. If international fans want to be considered a part of this industry (and considering how often people tweet, tumbl, write on facebook walls or write on boards like this) they need to become part of the financial aspects of the industry. That is how entertainment works. The Japanese domestic market listens to the Japanese people. The international fans want to be listened to--how do you get the domestic market to pay attention other than money? I disagree with this completely. The band is very obviously attracting fans, but the fans are the issue. The fans are unwilling to spend money, for a variety of reasons. The issue begins with the fan. The fan (gathered from the variety of posts on this thread) don't believe they are responsible for purchasing music. They believe that because they do not have the money, they are still deserving of music, as if it were water. Music is not a right. It is not a 'need'. It is a want. And, if a fan is willing to illegally download music, then they are the problem. Their way of thinking is the problem. Everyone is enjoying making excuses: "It's too expensive." "The quality isn't good enough!" "I don't have the money." "I deserve music." This is the problem. No band owes their fans free music. The solution is that the band and industry work with the foreign fanbase to create a method where fans can purchase music and be a part of the industry, rather than a leech sucking potential sales from the industry. Someone on this thread pointed out that a lot of fans purchase singles, but already have them from illegal downloads. The industry needs to make a product that is attractive, but even with the most amazing products.... nothing will matter until the fans change their perception of their influence. And I thought this was going to go bad not because of my response, but because it seems most of you are pro illegal-downloading. That in itself is scary enough.

Just to clear things up, I never once said that cd sales is where a band gets their money in my main arguement. In fact, I very clearly stated that it's only a part of the moeny, particularly for the musicians themselves. However, it is important for a band to sell music to succeed in the Japanese market, particularly the way that promotion plays into how likely a band is to succeed. This has nothing to do with money for the members. I dumbed down my comment, but you would be aware if you read the original comment. Now, on musicians and labels, I'm actually pretty well-versed in labels and music ownership rights. I grew up with a musician for a father (metal), a brother (metal), and a sister (opera). However, again, we're not talking about western bands and the way they form their labels and contracts. We're talking about a band that owns their own label, first and foremost. Again, we're talking of an entire different can of worms. We're not talking about western bands. Had you read my actual writings, I never said it was wrong or unjust that members aren't paid for their lives. I am stating facts. I felt bad for them, yeah. But I'm not saying it's wrong or unjust. I'm just stating that it happens. Bands pay per live, and are paid per head. It's extremely competitive, and expensive. So, bands disband all the time about money and sales. To be honest, I'm... disappointed that this is the route you were going down. I was hoping for something a little more impressive. I'm not sure you're aware, but a generous portion on the 2000s bands (fall out boy, panic!at the disco, all the other screamo-emo-hardcore-whatever) bands catered largely to teenagers. They made buckets of money. You know, because you're so adamant on bringing up western music. As for someone who has seen Nocturnal Bloodlust live and been a part of their particular corner of the scene... almost all of their Japanese fans are over the age 20. Now, you're right that a lot of visual kei fans abroad are younger, but that still doesn't change the argument in the slightest, because I never said "They should be able to make buckets of money and never work again." I said, "Illegal downloading is a problem that the industry needs to be involved in, and fans need to be willing to work with the industry and purchase some music, so that bands they enjoy are able to thrive." tl;dr: Actually read posts and don't just skim them over for sentences that look debatable.

I'm sorry you don't like the way I presented my points. Let me be more concise. 1. Illegal downloading is still illegal. 2. Making music, playing concerts, and promotion cost money that the band and their management pays. 3. This money and promotion comes from cds. 4. Bands won't go to the US/EU/South America if they can't see sales. ??? Result: No sales? No band for you. You don't have to like the bands, but this goes for any visual kei band. And we're talking about visual kei bands right now, which is why I didn't bring up other musical genres. So, you're not really making any valid points.

I'm sure I'm going to get shit for this. Let's begin with a simple concept: Illegal downloading is illegal. This is not a moral statement, this is just a fact. More importantly, those who host copywritten materials are actually breaking more laws than those who download songs. This is not a debatable fact. Now, are the current modes of selling CDs and other music outdated? Yes, they are. Are there issues with a international-based way of purchasing music? Yes, that's undeniable. But is it illegal at this moment to take music that you did not create? Yes. So, legally, Nocturnal Bloodlust does have a right to state that it is wrong for people to illegally download their music. So, they do have a right to say what they want, even if we disagree with it. Can they sue? Yeah, they can. Will they? Probably not, because I'm pretty sure they wanted to prove a point more than anything. Should they? Honestly, I don't think so, but it would definitely help bring changes to the way we see illegal downloading. Bands going after illegal downloading doesn't happen very much... and for a Japanese visual kei band to go against a foreign fanbase? Pretty much unheard of. Now we get into the rest... like moral dilemmas. But before we get there, it's important to cover what a CD sale (or MP3 sale) actually means. You're correct to assume that a CD sale does not go to the artist directly. Typically, the money goes to the label, and a portion of that income goes the the musician themselves. The label typically pays for the production of music (time at the studio, audio and visual equipment, artwork, mixing, raw production materials like CDs, jacket covers, etc.), the purchase of raw materials for the band itself (make up, costumes, equipment vans, sometimes actual equipment, etc.) the production of memorabilia and other goods, travel, food, airfare, payment of their staff (I'm not sure, but last time I saw Nocturnal Bloodlust they had three permanent staff. Their roadie, and two people from management) as well as payment for space at lives. In regards to the 'lives' payment, visual kei venues require you pay at the end of the night, after performing. It's not unheard of for small/medium venues to cost between ¥150000-¥500000 ($1500-5000) and you damn well better prepare to have that money on hand. At Taibans, yeah. It's split between the acts, but even then, that means you need to sell a lot of tickets. Why do you think a lot of band members sell at their own tables? Fans are far more willing to pay money to their favorite member than to a staff member... who'd have to be paid as well. I once saw an indies band back in 2012 at EDGE and then accidentally met their guitarist at Ikebukuro Station. He was actually debating on whether he should eat a bowl of ramen or walk the 4 kilometers home, because they were short that night and he had to give all the money he had in his wallet except for a ¥500 coin. I bought the guy a ramen cup because it was just so depressing. Bad nights happen, and if you don't have the money, don't be surprised if you have to actually dig it out of your own funds. Then again, I lived across the street from 7-11 where a super indies bandman worked nights. Because most indies band members have to have two, sometimes three jobs. Hell, Natsu of Nocturnal Bloodlust worked in a 7-11 for a long time to pay for his band activities. Being in a visual kei band is expensive. So, while sales don't go straight into the member's pockets, you can bet that they're just as important for the band to survive. A band can't make or sell music if they don't have the money to play or even record. I'll also put here that there is always complaining when a band disbands on here-- I've seen it time and time again people saying it isn't fair that an indies band disbanded, that they were such a huge fan of the music. But it never seems that we actually talk about why they disbanded. "They're not selling tickets or cds" is a good reason. In fact, one of the first comments on here was about how bands just conditionally disband if they're not doing well. We think that's stupid (or at least I do) but then when a band takes it into their own hands to say something about why people shouldn't illegally download their music, people throw a hissyfit. I don't understand the logic. If you want a band to survive, you buy the music. Because supporting the band you enjoy doesn't mean you make a few gifs and put them on tumblr, or draw fanart. We live in a time where, for musicians to thrive and actually continue with their activities, they need money. Then you have to factor in the importance of selling CDs in a less understood way. Every time a sale of a cd is made, it shows the interest in the band. In Japan, charts are still important to knowing where a band stands. The better your sales doesn't just mean how many cds you sold, it directly effects how much advertising your next single or album receives. It can mean the difference between your video getting played on repeat on the tvs in Tower Records or getting shoved in with all the other releases. It directly reflects how many interviews the band receives offers from, how many spots they get on television, how many radio stations play the songs. We're not going to get into super big details in regards to marketing of visual kei, but it is extremely temperamental to the wants of the market. And here's where things get interesting: Visual kei isn't as popular as you would think. This is still a niche market not with an unlimited amount of funds, space, or attention. In an industry like that, you have to understand what it means for a band to lose out on a 'sale'. Even a handful of sales abroad DO matter to a band that's fighting for recognition. Let's also talk about people requesting that a band travel abroad to play lives for foreign audiences. I don't think msot of you realize how expensive that is-- it's obscene. Let's talk about a 'normal' tour (like Dir en Grey, or D'espairsray for a second.) If a band wants to play in the US, they actually have to compete for visas. They have to prove the worth of their music and show that they are not going to affect the American music industry negatively. To get an entertainment or artist visa in the US, it's piles and piles and piles of paperwork, because the US goes out of its way to protect their music industry. The fees for getting a band to tour art astronomical on their own, but to tour the US? It's horrifying. That's actually why a lot of bands skip over the US and play in Europe. The visa requirements are far less stringent and it's cheaper. This is why a lot of bands end up playing at conventions. It's typically cheaper for the band, because the convention has people who know the laws and are willing to pay the fees required. However, it isn't unheard of for bands to play on the promise of being paid when they arrive... and never getting paid. Or, not making the money they expected and being unable to recoup that money. And, during that time they're abroad, they aren't playing for their core audience, meaning... they're missing out on that much money. It's amazing how many times I've gone onto official youtube channels and seen the requests for a band to go abroad... and then see those same names pop up in filesharing places. Because guess what? The band sees that, too. They're tech savvy. They know where they're selling cds. They know where they're not selling cds. So, by looking at that, they can tell that they aren't selling enough in Europe, in the states, or wherever they are getting requests for lives from. And you know what that does? That influences the band against going abroad. They see that their cds aren't selling in that area, so they don't believe they would be able to recoup the money they spent on going abroad. They don't believe enough fans exist to pay for their visits. Illegal downloading is directly affecting who you get to see go on tour abroad. So while we can debate over how big of an asshole Masa is for saying that illegal downloading is wrong, you have to understand where they're coming from. It isn't unheard of for labels to drop bands for not making sales, no matter how great the music is or how talented the band is. I'm also stunned by the sheer amount of self-righteousness and entitlement going on in this thread. No one is entitled to free music. There are 'needs' and 'wants'. Needs are things like water, food, shelter. Wants are internet, computers, music made by men who are wearing ten pounds of makeup and are waving around guitars. You want the music. You will survive without it. I'm not sure of the ages of anyone on this board, but I will say this: I had that same opinion until I actually had to pay for my own bills. Before I became an adult. Now, let's talk about Nocturnal Bloodlust themselves for a second. This is the closest thing foreign fans have gotten to an internationally-minded band in a very long time. They make sure their music is available for fans abroad, two of the members are fluent in English and regularly converse with fans, and they have been going out of their way to bring foreign fans into the fold. They even made it so foreign fans could become members of their fanclub. They want to go abroad. And let's remember how a band can find it viable to go abro--oh. Right CD sales in foreign countries, not the number of requests a band receives. In addition... they run their label pretty much on their own. All of the costs? They pay for them. Iris and Crisis is Nocturnal Bloodlust's label. They have connections to Raiz Entertainment (their old label) which has connections through the industry... but for the most part, they're the people who have to pay for everything. We can debate on if they should have gotten into visual kei until the cows come home, but the fact of the matter is: Shit is expensive. 'Fans' are also pissed off because they got called out on it. The band knows people are illegally downloading, and brought it up. They want to talk about the problem. It isn't even the first time the band's done this--they did it last year, and the year before that when they released Ivy. Now, rather than having a discussion about illegal downloading and what the foreign fans want... people railed against him. They said he was overbearing and an asshole, and that he didn't have a right to speak out about illegal downloading. That's not the conversation they need. If you want to have a conversation with the band about how to better market themselves to foreign fans, do it! I think it would be a good idea if they opened an international webstore where fans could buy goods and CDs. A way of buying songs off their website that are bundled with lossless versions and photos. Add special goodies for people who buy mp3 versions. It's cheaper to buy the versions of all their releases off itunes in USD than it is for Japan (example, their newest single costs ¥250 a song but in USD is only $1.29.) This is also a band that makes sure the cds are available within a week of their release in Japan, because they understand that once the cd is out there... they're not going to sell as many copies. But even a few matter. I think it would be great if they tried to use more English and worked to try and make themselves more internationally minded. Rather than getting angry that the band is mad at foreign fans for illegally downloading, make it so the band knows what you want. And you'll buy. There will be people who continue to illegally download. That won't change. People who think they somehow deserve music and the work of other people. People who think they're entitled to music (the reason I can't even begin to imagine.) And there's nothing any of us can do about that. But buying a cd or MP3 will at least show the band where fans are, and will make your voice heard. And this isn't just for this one band. This is for any band with a huge foreign following. Most bands are ignorant of how popular they are in foreign countries, because they just don't sell many cds in those areas, so they don't know. What you have to do, as fans of a band, is be loud about your love for a band. Otherwise... this will just happen time and time again.

Well, I briefly talked to Garo a while back and he said he was thinking about doing another band, which is good. Toki's been doing a few projects lately (mostly sessions) so... I imagine they'll all eventually move on. And Garo, Nikky, and Toki admitted on their twitters that even though it's called a hiatus, the band is finished.

For this release, it's signed postcards. Tower Records: Live Poster HMV: Logo Sticker CD Japan: Singed Jacket Poster Disk Union: Jacket Sticker Like an Edision: Signed Masa Postcard Zeal Link: Signed Hiro Postcard Brand X: Signed Cazqui postcard Little Hearts: Comment DVD A Jishuban Club: Signed Daichi Postcard Puresound: Signed Natsu Postcard Fivestars: Comment DVD B

No dvds with the PVs. They release only one version of the CD. They then release the PV on their youtube. I think it's their way of not being a typical vkei band, making you buy ten versions of the cd in ten different forms. (you still get different things based on where you buy it, like special signed goods, stickers, comment dvds, etc.) But only one type of cd. Sometimes, they'll have a 'special' edition, which comes in a cool case and has a few extra goodies like that. Otherwise, nah.