Japanese live houses "order" to success

[chemicalpictures 1888]

Hey everyone,

I always wondered about the "road to budokan". Lemme explain:  what's the "order" of japanese livehouses that bands tend to follow on their road to sucess? Like, if the band X is doing a oneman on livehouse Y, which holds up to 6000 people, si it means that band X is looking good, and has a fairly good fanbase, and so on...

 

So, I thought it would be nice to have the most famous livehouses listed by size/importance. The thing is I don't know anything about them, so I'm here asking for a comprehensive guide on the topic, if possible! Thanks a lot!

[Biopanda 2675]

Hmm... I don't think there's any particular "road", but I suppose there are a few different tiers. These only apply to VK bands in Tokyo, so I don't know how it'd be for others.

 

Tier 1:

This one is the lowest of the low and are where bands you've never heard of play at. This includes venues such as Urawa Narciss, Ikebukuro Cyber and Birth Shinjuku(formerly Holiday Shinjuku).

 

Tier 2:

Bands who play these venues generally(but not always) have a slightly bigger audience. Venues in this tier would be ones like the Ruido venues(K2, K3, K4), SHIBUYA-REX, Takadanobaba Area and Ikebukuro EDGE.

 

Tier 3:

Once bands have made it here, they are usually pulling in much larger audiences(these venues hold 500+ capacity). The big venues here would be Shibuya O-West, Shinjuku LOFT and Shinjuku BLAZE.

 

Tier 4:

There's probably a lot of mixing inbetween tier 3 and 4, but I'll consider tier 4 to be venues with 1000+ capacity. The livehouses here would be ones like Shibuya O-East(~1300), Akasaka Blitz(~1300), SHIBUYA-AX(~1500) and Zepp Tokyo(~2700).

 

Tier 5:

God-tier. If you've made it here, then you've pretty much made it as a band. This includes the biggest venues like Budokan(~14,000), Saitama Super Arena(~37,000) and Tokyo Dome(~56,000).

 

This is by no means a definitive guide, but should at least give you an idea on "how far" a band is along that road

[The Libertine 2]

i dont know tokyo's so welll.  but even big bands play small venues sometimes where I live (and i personally love it!).  

[Kaye 296]

Bigger bands will always do smaller livehouse tours (unless they're really really really big)

 

But the tour final is mostly done at one of the bigger venues. Like ONE OK ROCK's latest tours for instance. Most of their shows were in Tier 4 venues while their tour finals have been at Budokan, Yokohama Arena, and such. It's like a "grand closing" of the tours.

[Number Girl 48]

I have a similar question concerning music festivals. Like, how big do you have to be to be featured in Fuji Rock, Summer Sonic, RSR, etc? 

[chemicalpictures 1888]

Thank you Biopanda, this pretty much solved my doubts!

Now I can compare how long a band is active with the Tier they belong to predict future disbandments, lol

[Biopanda 2675]

Thank you Biopanda, this pretty much solved my doubts!

Now I can compare how long a band is active with the Tier they belong to predict future disbandments, lol

You just gotta watch out for the Tier 1 bands that somehow manage to stay around forever despite all evidence to the contrary(See: MURASAKI, who pretty much exclusively plays Narciss and has been doing so for like 7 years now).

[sugoge 11]

I will add that it's not so much how big the livehouse is but whether or not they can fill it for a oneman. A lot of no name bands can play big venues during events because everyone knows everyone in VK and they're all friends, so the real deal is playing a sold-out show on your own. If a band never sells out a venue, even a small one, they're probably not going far.

[hyura 465]

You just gotta watch out for the Tier 1 bands that somehow manage to stay around forever despite all evidence to the contrary(See: MURASAKI, who pretty much exclusively plays Narciss and has been doing so for like 7 years now).

 

I'd even go as far as to put Narciss into a category of its own. (tier 0,5 or something.)

There are quite a few bands that play almost exclusively in that livehouse and it usually means that it's a band that won't ever get famous.

[Karma’s Hat 3107]

Off topic as fuck but where does THE PIASS place? I recall they were touring either early this year or late last year.

[Ikna 1225]

Also off topic: but doesn't such similiar systems exist in other countries as well? I am not sure, as I live in the middle of europe and I think we just generally don't have so much differntiated venues, so bigger (mostly indie though) bands might even play in fucking small discos . But I think when you start as a musician in the US you also might have to run through different types of performance spaces before you made it and can go touring in bigger halls? Just curious.

[VkBrutaliaN 1890]

from my live house experience while i was in tokyo last year birth shinjuku and shinjuku ruido k4 have pretty much the same space of People which can be in the venue... both concert halls are even only  like 3-400 meters away from each other.

[The Bread Wolf 231]

Tier 4:

There's probably a lot of mixing inbetween tier 3 and 4, but I'll consider tier 4 to be venues with 1000+ capacity. The livehouses here would be ones like Shibuya O-East(~1300), Akasaka Blitz(~1300), SHIBUYA-AX(~1500) and Zepp Tokyo(~2700).

You motherfucker forgot C.C Lemon Hall from the list. THEY'VE GOT THEIR OWN FUCKIN' LEMONADE. PUT IT ON THE LIST.

[Biopanda 2675]

You motherfucker forgot C.C Lemon Hall from the list. THEY'VE GOT THEIR OWN FUCKIN' LEMONADE. PUT IT ON THE LIST.

There's no such thing anymore They changed it's name back to Shibuya Public Hall and removed the giant lemon sign out front :'D

[TheBistroButcher666 228]

Also off topic: but doesn't such similiar systems exist in other countries as well? I am not sure, as I live in the middle of europe and I think we just generally don't have so much differntiated venues, so bigger (mostly indie though) bands might even play in fucking small discos . But I think when you start as a musician in the US you also might have to run through different types of performance spaces before you made it and can go touring in bigger halls? Just curious.

Seattle does for sure and I bet it's the same with any large metro urban hub. 

 

I can only speak for the metal/punk scene in Seattle which often overlaps in venues but I'll bring up the Japanese bands that have come through here and their placement in Seattle's venues to keep it relevant with Japanese music.

 

Tier 1:

This is basically those dive bar gigs that only local bands play at. Rarely does a touring band play at these locations and when a touring band does it's a local tour with other no name local bands. So if you're in Seattle and want to experience underground Seattle metal or punk go to these places. From what I understand the vocalist from Nocturnal Bloodlust is from Seattle, so if he was in a local band he probably played at one of these locations or something similar. 

- Comet Tavern, Black Lodge and even Fun House except that closed and if you're a woman don't go alone because it's sketch.

 

Tier 1.5/2:

This is where all the unpopular popular metal bands play at when touring through Seattle. So basically imagine all the bands metal fans love but don't get any radio or mainstream recognition. Moonsorrow, Negura Bunget, In Solitude, Alcest, Tyr etc. These venues often have local bands opening, so make friends with these bands if you want to get in for a few dollars less.

- El Corazon and Studio 7.

 

Kiwamu/GPKism actually played at El Corazon. I had enough sense to not bother going but unfortunately missed out on Kiwamu and Rodger wankery :C Also Loudness and Sigh played at Studio 7.

 

Tier 3:

This is about as far as I go before shit gets too mainstream (ohhhhhhhhhh so hipster) but basically the semi popular and/or washed up artists play at these venues. So basically Dir en grey, DespairsRay, Anthrax, Testament, Nightwish etc. 

 - Showbox Market and Sodo.

 

Dir en grey, DespairsRay, Vamps, Miyavi and Mucc all played at the Market. At least I think but I'm pretty sure if was Showbox Market for the last three. The Market is basically a slightly more classier venue for these slightly more well to do bands. Except DespairsRay I think undersold Showbox Market because they did an impromptu signing at the end of the concert to make up the costs. Showbox is a little out of their league but at least I got in before all the teeny weeaboos suckahs!! I am curious what the Vamps, Miyavi and Mucc turn out was like or if they just played opening for a bigger bands.

 

Also Dir en grey will be playing here in November and also played at the Sodo location when opening for some band I don't care about.  I am curious if Dir en grey will be able to fill it in November.

 

B'z recently came through Seattle and I think they played at one of the Showbox locations. I am thinking Market.

 

Tier 4:

Wamu Theater basically and maybe Key Arena. Not sure if Key Arena should be moved to Tier 5 since shitty derpstep like Skrillax played at Key Arena. Basically uhhh more expensive and holds more people. Hosts artists such as Megadeth, Metallica and X Japan. I've never been to these locations since tickets get into the I don't want to pay that now bracket and I don't like these artists enough to pay that. 

 

X Japan played at Wamu, didn't go though since I don't care about wash up Yoshiki and company trying to ride Hide's legacy.

 

Tier 4/5:

So it's Tier 5 if you're mother fucking Iron Maiden and you need to sell out the White River Amphitheater or The Gorge or any other God tier band like Journey or some shit.

 

Tier 4 if you're part of some shit tier festival like Ozzfest or Warp Tour and it's a multi day festival of pure hell and shit music. 

 

I don't foresee any Japanese bands reaching that level unless they're part of a festival.

[Ikna 1225]

Thanks Arithmetica for the informational answer. I find it interesting that Dir en grey play at the same stage/tier as most japanese bands, especially Visual kei. That should be proof enough that they didn't get more audience and a commercial sell out band by changing their sound, what many people believe. They seem to be in the same Tier since years...

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

I don't really know the order of tiers for where I used to live, but I know that Madison Square Garden is a gigantic venue that's pretty much a sign of "You've made it" if you play there. Nokia Theater at Jones Beach is also fairly large (it's stadium sized, so I'd say seats 10,000+) and really cool because it's on the beach and very open. I believe football and hockey stadiums are also turned into show venues during the off season in the tri-state area as well.

 

The Knitting Factory, which is where I saw Versailles play, is very small and I'd say could only fit about 200~250 max people. A lot of smaller bands also play at bars / clubs: this was more apparent when I lived in Rochester though. I'm assuming this applies to everywhere, but I wouldn't really say "small venue" is a direct correlation to popularity. Sometimes bands to "up close and personal" shows for only 100 people and the tickets are a hell of a lot more expensive or you need to somehow know a connection / win the tickets from the radio to get to see it. I guess all vkei concerts are up close and personal then, since live videos only show like 10 people in the audience

[paradoxal 2948]

There's also a listing of Japanese venues made by Tumblr user Fuck yeah Tanuki. All credits belong to the writer, just thought also this listing could be useful!

 

 

Well the lists are (generally) arranged by venue size - here’s the first one I found, although I think this person is confused about the size of small venues. Although everyone thinks CYBER is such a shithole that maybe it deserves to be number 1. And AREA kind of has a reputation of letting people play onemans there even if they can’t come remotely close to filling it.

 

Anyway, I listed capacities for you (just got them off a website, so sorry if they aren’t 100% accurate). To be considered for most of the “famous” guy threads, dudes need to be at least a 7. Some threads say they need to be able to play a oneman at these venues - some say events are enough.

 

☆1 Ikebukuro CYBER (300)

☆2 Takadanobaba Area (450), Shibuya o-crest (200)

☆3 Shibuya O-nest (250)

☆4 Shibuya BOXX (320)

☆5 Harajuku Astro Hall (400)

☆6 Shinjuku LOFT (550), Daikanyama UNIT (600), Shibuya O-west (600)

☆7 Shibuya QUATTRO (800)

☆8 LIQUIDROOM Ebisu (1000)

☆9 Shibuya O-East (1300), Kawasaki Club CITTA’ (1300)

☆10 Shibuya AX (1500), Akasaka BLITZ (1400)

☆11 Shibuya Public Hall (2300), Shinkiba Studio Coast (2400), ZEPP TOKYO (2700), Hibiya Open-Air Concert Hall (2600)

☆12 NHK Hall (3600), International Forum (5000)

☆13 Nippon Budokan (14000) Arenas

 

Of course, you also have to keep in mind that there are bands like…VAMPS, for instance, who only play ZEPP, but obviously girls think they’re really fucking famous. XD only playing ZEPP is obviously a personal preference for them, as they can sell out like 10 days there.

 

[Zeus 7997]

I find it interesting that Dir en grey play at the same stage/tier as most japanese bands, especially Visual kei. That should be proof enough that they didn't get more audience and a commercial sell out band by changing their sound, what many people believe. They seem to be in the same Tier since years...

Long, convoluted post coming through. I have a point in mind I want to communicate. Let's see if I successfully do that.

To put it bluntly, Dir en grey is a weird case for a band. At one point, they were very popular in Japan as a visual kei band and almost topped the charts. Then they decided to "start over" as a metal band and took a hit in popularity in Japan but started gaining more notoriety outside of Japan. To keep it relevant with the topic, two years after formation Dir en grey played Budokan, which is pretty impressive. These days, they fill medium-sized concert halls at best. They do it consistently though, which is pretty impressive for a band that has only gained lukewarm reception in their home country as best.

I wish I could find my sources to back up my claim, but Dir en grey claimed that they switched styles because they felt limited, and that if they didn't try to increase the scope of their ambitions outside of Japan they would have disbanded around 2005. They haven't because they've become popular worldwide and play tours in many countries. And they actually do tours, instead of the "3-live" tour that a lot of visual kei bands do. When even D'espairsRay came to America for the last time, they only hit up four or five venues. Dir en grey do a lot more than that when they come to visit.

 

The Venues D'espairsRay Played HUMAN-CLAD MONSTERS WORLD TOUR

 

03/08 @ The Roxy Theatre,  Hollywood, CA - United States of America

04/08 @ Slim's, San Francisco, CA - United States of America

06/08 @ Showbox at The Market, Seattle, WA - United States of America

09/08 @ Bottom Lounge, Chicago, IL - United States of America

12/08 @ Webster Hall, New York, NY - United States of America

14/08 @ The Masquerade, Atlanta, GA - United States of America (Cancelled)

16/08 @ The Loft, Dallas, TX - United States of America (Cancelled)

17/08 @ Meridian, Houston, TX - United States of America (Cancelled)

 

In case you didn't know/forgot, D'espairsRay had to beg fans to buy tickets for the shows they did sell out, and had to cancel the last four (there was one in Canada I skipped over) because they didn't sell. I never recall Dir en grey having to beg anyone to buy tickets to any of their shows, and all of the times they cancelled a tour was due to Kyo's illness.

 

The Venues Dir en grey Played THE UNWAVERING FACT OF TOMORROW 2010 TOUR

 

08/24 @ Nokia Theatre Times Square, New York, NY, USA

08/26 @ Royale Boston, Boston, MA, USA

08/27 @ Rams Head Live!, Baltimore, MD, USA

08/28 @ Electric Factory, Philadelphia, PA, USA

08/30 @ Center Stage, Atlanta, GA, USA

08/31 @ The Pageant, St. Louis, MO, USA

09/01 @ House of Blues, Chicago, IL, USA

09/02 @ First Avenue, Minneapolis, MN, USA

09/04 @ Ogden Theatre, Denver, CO, USA

09/05 @ Sunshine Theater, Albuquerque, NM, USA

09/07 @ House of Blues, Las Vegas, NV, USA

09/08 @ Club Nokia, Los Angeles, CA, USA

09/09 @ The Grand Ballroom at the Regency Center, San Francisco, CA, USA

09/11 @ The Showbox SoDo, Seattle, WA, USA

09/12 @ Roseland Theater, Portland, OR, USA

 

Not only did Dir en grey play more venues than D'espairsRay, they filled up all of these venues, they played over a longer period of time than D'espairsRay, AND they visited parts of the US many other overseas bands don't go to, like Colorado and St. Louis. So even though they play the same "venues", Dir en grey is still on another level than a lot of other bands. Even including veteran bands like Sigh (FYI, they played about as many as D'espairsRay but not all at once and they filled them up, so take that as you will).

 

tl;dr - Dir en grey is still on a different level. They're not uber-famous but for a band that sings primarily in Japanese, they have a metric fuckload of fans that even a ton of US bands would be envious of.

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

The Royale in Boston is decent sized: I'd say they could probably fit 500~700 people in it comfortable, possibly more. I saw Sleigh Bells there earlier this fall, so I've been there myself. The Royale also has a sister venue in Cambridge called the Sinclaire that's much much smaller; I would say they could get over 500 people in there unless they're completely booked. I saw Charlie XCX and 2 other no-name groups there (one rock band, the other a starting hip-hop artist). 

 

I believe that's more of a lower-mid-tier venue here though. Bigger acts tend to play at places like The Hard Rock Cafe or House of Blues (AFI, Fleshgod Apocalypse, Avenged Sevenfold, and Eli Golding are a few recent / going to be coming here performers I can name off the top of my head), where as huge acts will more than likely use the TD arena, which is where the basketball / hockey team plays (fairly certain Lady Gaga is going to play there in the near future). 

[TheBistroButcher666 228]

DespairsRay's tour was a cluster fuck because didn't they have Visa issues right before the tour start?

Anyway, I was just going to pipe in but it seems like most Japanese artists always play at Showbox in Seattle. So I wouldn't look into too much in regards to who plays where in the US. I think it's just whoever is booking the bands are just familiar with Showbox than other local venues.

The exceptions would be Loudness, Church of Misery, Sabbat and Sigh playing at the typical local metal venues but that's probably because they're associated with those metal labels and promoters that regularly book at these venues.

I'm only speaking in regards to Seattle but I imagine that could apply to other cities as well.