Visual kei is dead! (at least on youtube)

[Nyasagi 259]

So with that comes the question of, is it harder to get into the music of many VK bands now, are the videos not what will even interest today`s audience, and even if it does, will the audience care to take the time to make a comment, or join a community, discuss, support etc... with so many other options out there.

 

I think this also favors certain sides of VK prospering in the social universe more than others. The `shock value` has shifted, some things are redundant now, some things are expected, and there are other things popping up that seem to create better responses to new viewers.

Tetora, think about the current VK videos. What are these about? Just the band playing and looking pretty... not many bands make interesting PVs anymore. I often watch them just once and never come back to them again, because there's nothing to see. Maybe the videos are good for girls who want to stare at their favorite member, but I just don't care about it that much. I'd rather see them performing in an interesting PV story, than look at them playing/signing all the time. This is just boring!

 

There is no shock value anymore, because bands stopped using it. The bands focused on gathering female fangirls, not shocking people. I think being cute always creates better response in Japan? Everything is cute there. The idea of VK is supposed to be different, than this. I don't understand why they do it, because VK has always been an underground scene. Do they really expect to earn piles of money like this? Or maybe it's just a music trend that will go away, eventually.

[seikun 317]

With more presence on Youtube and other platforms, could bands such as La'Veil MizeriA get more people to develop an interest in their music from the west?

 

How important is how decently a band member can play an instrument and how well a vocalist can sing in order to receive enough attention from possible followers/fans? I am not talking about prodigious skills, just enough skills or experience for them to be able to play and sing decently so that people feel an interest in what they are listening to.

[Vitne Eveille 65]

Tetora, think about the current VK videos. What are these about? Just the band playing and looking pretty... not many bands make interesting PVs anymore. I often watch them just once and never come back to them again, because there's nothing to see. Maybe the videos are good for girls who want to stare at their favorite member, but I just don't care about it that much. I'd rather see them performing in an interesting PV story, than look at them playing/signing all the time. This is just boring!

 

There is no shock value anymore, because bands stopped using it. The bands focused on gathering female fangirls, not shocking people. I think being cute always creates better response in Japan? Everything is cute there. The idea of VK is supposed to be different, than this. I don't understand why they do it, because VK has always been an underground scene. Do they really expect to earn piles of money like this? Or maybe it's just a music trend that will go away, eventually.

 

The shock value thing is interesting here.  I think Yoshiki describes visual kei well here in this MetalSucks interview from 2010:

 

 

MS:  So X Japan is credited with inventing the visual kei style, and now you’ve abandoned it completely. We’ve seen this before. KISS got unmasked. Freddy Mercury cut his hair and stopped wearing nail polish. How did your fans react to this change?

Yoshiki:  I still consider us visual kei. We’ve moved away from the flashier side, but I think it’s part of our evolution. We just keep changing. We still use makeup. Sometimes heavy, sometimes less.

MS:  Do you think you would approach the U.S. differently if you were still heavily visual kei?

Yoshiki:  I don’t know. The visual kei is not really a style, it’s more of a freedom in describing yourself. You can be anything. That’s my definition of visual kei.

 

I like Yoshiki's definition of VK, it allows you to be whatever without the feeling of being judged.  There's no specific look.

 

As for the shock value disappearing, think about the glam metal and hair metal era of the 1980s.  Bands like Twisted Sister and Motley Crue and WASP started it and had really visually different styles, but then as the music became more popular, all these bands came and took on a poppier image and began all looking the same.  Sounds familiar in terms of VK.

 

I don't see why so many bands think that in order to be VK they have to have one member dressing like a doll, and one member must be wearing a mask.  That's like cookie-cutter VK now, and its not shocking at all.  Or different.  Perhaps different to those who are unfamiliar with VK, but that (to me) isn't what VK is about.

[doombox 4421]

I don't see why so many bands think that in order to be VK they have to have one member dressing like a doll, and one member must be wearing a mask.  That's like cookie-cutter VK now, and its not shocking at all.  Or different.  Perhaps different to those who are unfamiliar with VK, but that (to me) isn't what VK is about.

I have a small comment in reference to this. Because I've noticed, in Japanese music in general, and in Visual Kei as well, it's all about trends (Well, this is not just Japanese music now that I think about it). So one lolita and one masked member is a thing, just like how it seems song and album titles make the circles. Last year and this year I saw so many refereces to "End of the World/Owari no sekai/World's End". And now I've seen like 3 albums coming out in recently or the next couple of months all named "Supernova". I think while some people value being different, there's still a huge Japanese sentiment of 'following what everyone else is doing so you can be included'. A lot of these bands are simply trying to follow the formula that they believe works for the scene they want to be in. And I think VK has always had a lot of this, I remember there being a lot of bands that had similar looks to X Japan in their heyday, lots of bands who were called "Dir en grey clones" 10 years ago, ect. The popular styles now are just not as shock value oriented as they used to be, but lots of bands are just following what is popular.

[Vitne Eveille 65]

You are right, digitalbounce, and probably about most musical genres/scenes honestly.  Once one group makes a unique statement, others try to adopt that formula.  The notable ones I feel may take a formula and then skew it a bit and make it their own, while others just straight up copy something.

 

I'm also a fan of glam metal and 80s stuff, and in Scandinavia it is decently popular, its got a great underground scene.  But you can definitely tell there are a number of bands that think putting on some ripped-up jeans and a t-shirt make them "hair metal" - it just makes them blend in with the rest.

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

Did the "be yourself" thing ever really happen, aside from when the scene started for a bit, then again with the huge influx of diversity added around 1999~2002? Even when stylistically vkei was heavier, it was still somewhat formulaic.

 

Also, this has nothing to do with why the topic was started lel 

[Zeus 7997]

I don't mind as the discussion is insightful. However if it continues along this path I might merge it with the last topic that had a similar vein of discussion. If it suddenly disappears one day and there's a new unfamiliar topic in it's place, that would be why.

[Traxan 148]

Take Aldious for example. Find me an entire PV of Aldious on YouTube and I would be shocked.

 

Time to shock you. Sorta. No it's not on YouTube. Go here:

 

http://www.jpopasia.com/group/aldious/discography/

 

To the immediate left of a song title, you will see what looks like 35mm film icons. That means the entry has a video. Most are on Youku, some are on DailyMotion. But they are in their entirety.

 

I do agree that they are stupid for putting partial videos on YouTube, but I can see both sides of disabling comments. On the one hand, fans are denied a chance to communicate with the band (as I understand it, the girls own Bright Star Records, which posts the videos). OTOH, they are probably sparing themselves some obnoxious sexist and racist comments. I am thoroughly sickened by what I've seen said about the Babymetal girls by people who don't like them.

[seikun 317]

Perhaps labels feel they get so little for every band they produce that they try by all means to prevent any events that could make them not get any more money that they desperately need...

 

In the case of Youtube, I think some lables are afraid people will download PVs directly from the site instead of purchasing the DVD on sale. Some lables upload relatively low quality videos to solve this problem they apparently are facing... Others add logos or the basic information about the PV to the videos:

 

Song Title.

Band Name

Producer.

 

Fans usually want not only high quality videos but also no ads or information on the screen so we are forced to by the DVDs if we want the screen clean from those things.

 

So, there are ways to promote the bands and still not lose money...

 

However, just like promotion is important, the quality of the product being promoted (music) is also very important.

[relentless 254]

Perhaps labels feel they get so little for every band they produce that they try by all means to prevent any events that could make them not get any more money that they desperately need...

 

In the case of Youtube, I think some lables are afraid people will download PVs directly from the site instead of purchasing the DVD on sale. Some lables upload relatively low quality videos to solve this problem they apparently are facing... Others add logos or the basic information about the PV to the videos:

 

 

 

What's odd about that logic, is that they're called PVs for a reason: They're Promotional Videos to showcase the music for a band. If anything, PVs and Music Videos are just another aspect of marketing a band so it seems weird to me that these labels would be upset by people watching the videos / downloading them when the financial return on PVs is never easy to trace, and is going to yield results as much as 3-4 years after the video is released.

 

It's as if labels would expect viral success on par with PSY or BABYMETAL, which are lofty expectations to say the least.

 

 

Japanese management is either clueless, stupid, or both.

[doombox 4421]

Also, the label argument doesn't really work because many non-visual bands release full PVs on youtube for singles/minis/albums all the time. Not only the major labels, but indies as well. So it's strange that the visual kei labels would be the only ones milking this resource?

[Traxan 148]

Japanese management is either clueless, stupid, or both.

 

Japanese companies are notoriously bad at selling their product outside Japan. That may sound funny looking at the car and electronics makers, but it's true.

 

Not to mention they are grossly overpriced. I was looking at Cyntia's album on Japanese iTunes. 250 Yen per song. That's around $2.50 each. The whole album was 2000 Yen, or $20. You can't do that in America, period.

 

So I am curious about something. Why are Kyary Pamyu Pamyu's videos full length? There's no editing. if "Ponponpon" was cut off after 90 seconds, it never would have gone viral like it did. So why did they post the full version of that and every other video she's made?

[Tetora 625]

Japanese companies are notoriously bad at selling their product outside Japan. That may sound funny looking at the car and electronics makers, but it's true.

 

Not to mention they are grossly overpriced. I was looking at Cyntia's album on Japanese iTunes. 250 Yen per song. That's around $2.50 each. The whole album was 2000 Yen, or $20. You can't do that in America, period.

 

So I am curious about something. Why are Kyary Pamyu Pamyu's videos full length? There's no editing. if "Ponponpon" was cut off after 90 seconds, it never would have gone viral like it did. So why did they post the full version of that and every other video she's made?

What fields are Japan notoriously bad in?

They dominated the automobile, motorcycle, electronics, gaming industries for either extensive periods or to date, as well as strong flows in distribution of consumables, cultural exports, pop-culture exports, as well as taking a cut of the sale of most tapes, cds and blu-ray discs (actually a cut off all blu rays printed).

As for cd prices, goods have different values in different areas, not just Japan, and money flow as well as exchange rates play big factors, which is why iTunes is seperated throughout the World, and why we have import-export laws, duties, taxes etc..

Music has become severely devalued in USA, Japanese music not so much, which is why even though Japan faces a huge language barrier, it is the number 2 market in the world and is constantly predicted to overtake America.

As for Japanese managers being clueless, or stupid, how so? They are using their specific experience and business methods, which may not match those expected by areas with a devalued market, but even though I myself would not run my business that way, I can see why they do, when many of the labels that use the short PV method seem to be doing very well in sales, and are making revenue regardless.

I think that there is always room for improvement, and change, but even though I have my own ideas, I cant simply bash companies when they are making their business model work, and there is no concrete data to show they are losing any potential sales or have reason to change it.

[violetchain 912]

So I am curious about something. Why are Kyary Pamyu Pamyu's videos full length? There's no editing. if "Ponponpon" was cut off after 90 seconds, it never would have gone viral like it did. So why did they post the full version of that and every other video she's made?

Because she's on Warner and they usually post full versions of PVs? I think if she signed to another label you'd probably see just as many short versions or videos with making-of footage breaking up the song.

[Traxan 148]

What fields are Japan notoriously bad in?

As for Japanese managers being clueless, or stupid, how so? They are using their specific experience and business methods, which may not match those expected by areas with a devalued market, but even though I myself would not run my business that way, I can see why they do, when many of the labels that use the short PV method seem to be doing very well in sales, and are making revenue regardless.

 

It tends to be within fields. Here's one example I recently read about: Subaru is very popular in the U.S. and has a backlog. But the executives won't expand their factory here because they don't believe they are popular. So while Toyota does well, Subaru is screwing up.

 

Videogame fans have constantly complained about the great games they never get from Japan, but I can't comment too much because I'm not a console gamer. All I know is I hear the bitching about great games in Japan that are never released here.

 

Also, look up a company called ABI, which makes freezers call C.A.S. technology. It has been lauded in trade journals for being able to freeze food and not have it lose taste or texture. You can even freeze fruit. And yet they are virtually unknown outside Japan when every restaurant should beat a path to their door.

 

As for music, look at the discussion we are having. Foreign fans are interested in the music and how do they react? Partial PVs on YouTube and taking down full length videos. The fact is, you have to work hard to be a fan of a Japanese artist because they don't make much effort for international fans. KPP and Babymetal are an aberration in that regard.

 

And you can't say it's the language barrier. Rammstein did a full arena tour in 2011 and they sold out everywhere, including Madison Square Garden. If it's good, fans will be drawn to it.

 

I was wrong to use the word "notorious." But I've seen a ton of examples of Japan not bothering to sell something, whether it's electronics or pop stars, beyond its shores.

[fuyushita_risou 524]

Japanese make music for the japanese music market. Why should they change that, when they still earn through it.Why go into a market that is dying off, and works completely different from what they are used to. The appeal of visual kei and jrock will never get really huge in the western world, in all the years I have listened to visual kei 90% of the people that I introduced to jrock disregarded the music, as it was not fitting their western taste and was too exotic (and I am only talking music wise, if I would have added photos or videos it wouldn't have only been disregard but rather I would have been bitched for it. Who of you hasn't heard the sentence "ieeek why are they dressing as girls,how disgusting.") It was a fad but it was only a fad for a certain niche of people.

Anyway I am still using youtube heavily, and it still works, i am finding the stuff I want to find (even though I am from Germany and half the stuff is blocked through my own country and not through japanes copyright restrictions)

 

Considering the question in the beginning why there is no fan community of youtube anymore;with all the changing of the music scene and the record labels, didn't youtube also change? Does youtube even want to be a platform which serves as a replacement for a music channel? I don't think so, youtube had too many problems with copyright restrictions. So what is the current trend on youtube? it is vblogging. And this is damn successful if you take for example  the Green brothers (or the german le floid channel) And the Kpop fans are actually using that successfully. There is for example Eat your Kimchi (highly reccommend channel on korean culture) It is that successful that people even can earn money through it. And they DO discuss stuff there in the comments and have a strong community.

And here is the deal, was there EVER a decent channel on visual kei or jrock music? Like music reviews, in depth discussions about artists and trends or anything? As far as i know there wasn't/isn't. But i strongly believe if there would be something similiar to this people would gather again, the music would get promoted and everyone would be happy (i can even imagine that the negative comments wouldn't be that obvious) Youtube wants fan-created content and promotes that fan-created content, they don't want people to upload stuff that leads to problems with copyright and issues and for the music stuff they give room to the record labels and big corporations so they can deal with what they upload or don't want upload (vevo i.e.)

so here is the thing. Go with the trend, start vblogging and you get a jrock community on youtube again (this also could be a nice mh heaven project XD) 

[Zeus 7997]

And here is the deal, was there EVER a decent channel on visual kei or jrock music? Like music reviews, in depth discussions about artists and trends or anything? As far as i know there wasn't/isn't. But i strongly believe if there would be something similiar to this people would gather again, the music would get promoted and everyone would be happy (i can even imagine that the negative comments wouldn't be that obvious) Youtube wants fan-created content and promotes that fan-created content, they don't want people to upload stuff that leads to problems with copyright and issues and for the music stuff they give room to the record labels and big corporations so they can deal with what they upload or don't want upload (vevo i.e.)

so here is the thing. Go with the trend, start vblogging and you get a jrock community on youtube again (this also could be a nice mh heaven project XD)

You can't treat visual kei and J-Rock as the same thing. They're treated and marketed as two different entities towards two different demographics, since Visual Kei is treated as it's own genre separate from everything else. Our download forum is proof that there are visual kei fans, there are J-Rock fans, and the tastes generally don't overlap. There's very few fans of Japanese music that like both visual kei and J-Music in general and the ones that do exist are probably here.

So if you want to make this happen....it's up to us?

[seikun 317]

Fans of Visual Kei will always be a small fraction of the population because of the sense of subculture of the scene just like gothic, and other subcultures.

[fuyushita_risou 524]

You can't treat visual kei and J-Rock as the same thing. They're treated and marketed as two different entities towards two different demographics, since Visual Kei is treated as it's own genre separate from everything else. Our download forum is proof that there are visual kei fans, there are J-Rock fans, and the tastes generally don't overlap. There's very few fans of Japanese music that like both visual kei and J-Music in general and the ones that do exist are probably here.

So if you want to make this happen....it's up to us?

 

/rolling eyes

that's why i love mh so much, all these well informed people, that are in the scene for years and are up uptight about the tiniest details XD

 

Well it would be a nice idea, and an interesting project. As i thought about it while writing there were a lot of ideas already in my head (like news sections, review sections, reccommendations, summaries of the latest discussions threads on mh etc, people could record stuff and then upload it to a dropbox,  and another person could do the editing, etc, lots of ideas in minutes)

 

the problem will be the time, as always (which scares me the most, if thinking about making this a thing)

[nekkichi 6042]

So I am curious about something. Why are Kyary Pamyu Pamyu's videos full length? There's no editing. if "Ponponpon" was cut off after 90 seconds, it never would have gone viral like it did. So why did they post the full version of that and every other video she's made?

I've always been under impression that KPP was created with international sales/touring/viral potential in mind - it would make no sense to restrict her exposure in this way.

 

same with babymetal.

[DogManX 179]

I've always been under impression that KPP was created with international sales/touring/viral potential in mind - it would make no sense to restrict her exposure in this way.

 

same with babymetal.

 

True. You can't understand those without PSY.